00:04
Khurram Jamil
So I chose SUPERFLEX, FOREIGNERS PLEASE DON'T LEAVE US ALONE WITH THE DANES. I believe it's extremely impactful work.

00:12
Khurram Jamil
The saying "Foreigners Please Don't Leave Us Alone With the Danes" — it's a mix, right? It is provocative. It always gets me to think, what state are we right now in society? It's been there since, I believe, 2002. So the words always get me to reflect.

00:30
Khurram Jamil
As a son of immigrants, is this still relevant? And the answer for me right now is yes. And maybe one day it's not. But we're not there as a society.

00:41
Khurram Jamil
Why was this piece part of the collection at that point in time of society, right? It says something about society. And I hope that work will be a historic work, that was important from an art perspective. But for next generations to come, less relevant maybe in 20 years, in 10 years.

01:06
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
My name is Tina Jøhnk Christensen, and I'm the host of Danish Originals, a podcast series created in partnership with the American Friends of the National Gallery of Denmark and the National Gallery of Denmark. Our goal is to celebrate Danish creatives who have made a significant mark in the US.

01:24
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Today our guest is Khurram Jamil, Danish art collector. Welcome, Khurram.

01:30
Khurram Jamil
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

01:32
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
First of all, tell the listeners where we are today. Maybe describe the place. We're in your office, in your house, but we are also close to your exhibition space. Talk a little bit about this space.

01:44
Khurram Jamil
Yeah. So we just started, actually, the chat today inside MILAAP. MILAAP is the exhibition space in our house, just outside the physical house. It's an old garage that we, my wife and I, rebuilt two years ago to basically house parts of my collection, which is called the Jamil Collection. My surname is Jamil, so hence the collection. But there was too much echo in there, so we decided to move here, which is my home work space. And that's also cozy.

02:17
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
It's very cozy. Talk a little about what's in the space right now, and how you decide what to fill it with.

02:25
Khurram Jamil
MILAAP is, in Pakistani or Urdu, and actually also Hindi, which is the Indian language, the simplest word, if you asked someone from the Indian subcontinent, what does milaap mean? They would probably say, meeting.

02:38
Khurram Jamil
But if you start looking deeper into dictionaries, there's many explanations of that word. I would say, another very meaningful word for me is reunification. So, obviously, that could be reunification, or reconciliation, of nations, couples, friends. So it has this meaning of something coming together.

03:02
Khurram Jamil
And the space was called after a specific artwork, which actually is in the space permanently, by a Pakistani artist living in London. He's in the late 80s now, Rasheed Araeen, and it's called "Milaap," that work. And it's two pieces of wood that hold each other kind of together. They depend on each other, yellow and red.

03:24
Khurram Jamil
And I saw that work with a friend actually in New York, probably eight, nine years ago. And, I was, wow, that was a very meaningful work for me. My parents are from Pakistan. I'm born in Denmark, but my heritage is Pakistani. And I was like, I want that work one day. And it used to be in my US office, because we'll probably talk about that, but I lived six years in Boston and New York City.

03:52
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
What gave you the idea to create this space? It's welcoming the public. There is a connection between the private space and the public space. Maybe talk a little about that.

04:07
Khurram Jamil
It's not something that I've been planning to do for many, many years, but we probably need to go back to around 2014. We were in New York. That was while I was living in the US. And one of the first, I would say, bigger works that I acquired is by a US-Iranian artist, Nicky Nodjoumi, and that I bought in a gallery downtown.

04:38
Khurram Jamil
It's actually this work that you're looking at there, a very political work, where you see some kind of politician playing some kind of chess, but not real chess. And so the collection started with focusing on Middle Eastern artists who are not living in the Middle East, and in particular, female artists.

04:57
Khurram Jamil
And that gallerist, who's a Lebanese-Finnish guy, became a friend. And through him, I started acquiring works that were typical diaspora of Middle Eastern, or Muslim countries. And that's where the collection started slowly ten years ago. But with anyone who starts collecting, the number starts, can, end up being more than you can have in your private house or in the office.

05:27
Khurram Jamil
So we also have a corporate art collection. So, in my company, I've been fortunate that my business partners have been allowed to collect also on behalf of the company. So we have quite some works there as well, that are focusing on also Middle Eastern art, and Southeast Asian art, and also some Nordic and American artists.

05:48
Khurram Jamil
And at some point there was, I felt that there was, enough in both private and in the office space, that it would be great to have a little lone space that was only dedicated for art. And that, hence, when we bought this house, where we're sitting, two years ago, I thought, let's make this garage this art exhibition space.

06:08
Khurram Jamil
So it's a long, long explanation of why MILAAP, why we actually decided to do that. But it started in small steps of starting to collect.

06:17
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And we are sitting in your house in Hellerup, actually, to tell the listeners where in the world we are. And the company that you are talking about is Area9 Lyceum, which is located in Denmark and Boston. What is it that this company does and why did you start it? What kind of need did you see when you created it?

06:38
Khurram Jamil
So now we need to turn maybe 20 years back. So my education is I'm a medical doctor by training. Our CEO and one of the other co-founders is also a doctor and the two others are computer scientists. And what we've been pursuing over the last 20 years is how could you combine computer science, medical knowledge, knowledge about how the brain works and education, into something that obviously can benefit humanity at large?

07:07
Khurram Jamil
So 20 years ago, our work was mainly around medical education, healthcare education. We use technology, various technologies that will be too lengthy to get into, but advanced technology to get people to learn better and easier. That has been the goal from day one.

07:26
Khurram Jamil
And what led us to come to the US, was actually some years later, when we started the first version of Area9 — because that was later sold, I'll come back to that, to an American publisher. We saw that the biggest market for these kinds of educational technologies would be the US.

07:44
Khurram Jamil
So around 2007, we started traveling a lot to the US and partnered with one of the world's largest educational publishers, McGraw Hill Education, and basically launched a very advanced way to deliver ebooks called a smart book. And basically that smart book is a personalized way to acquire knowledge from a book using technology.

08:07
Khurram Jamil
So that we did, and at some point we had millions of students in colleges in the US using the product and then in companies. Somebody then gets interested in seeing how that could expand further and we then ended up selling that platform to McGraw Hill in '14.

08:25
Khurram Jamil
Then me and our CEO Ulrich moved to Boston, and hence the US adventure started. And probably that's one of the reasons why I'm also here, talking about both what made me go to the US and how did the art collection start, right? And it all happened in 2014.

08:43
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
What was your experience in Boston like? Talk about the move there, and if it was smooth or if there were any challenges for you.

08:51
Khurram Jamil
I would say, if you ask my parents how it was to move from Pakistan to Denmark, right? This was 1% of that. It was extremely easy. Literally, I felt it was home from day one because we traveled so many years there and we had so many friends in the US. So what we experienced as a family — I have two kids as well, one was born in Boston and one was born here, and my wife — is that it's very easy as an immigrant to integrate and become kind of an American.

09:24
Khurram Jamil
If you ask my 8-year old daughter, she still says I'm half American. She has an American passport, but I remind her that her genetics are half Pakistani, half Danish. My wife is ethnic Danish, right? So very, very easy and lovely people in Boston. And also later. So we were four years in Boston and then two years in New York City and had to move back during COVID due to many reasons. But we had six good years in the US.

09:50
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And Boston, what kind of a city is that? Most people know it because of Harvard or Cheers, the bar.

09:57
Khurram Jamil
And definitely, it's a very academic town and one of the, also, partly reasons for being there. McGraw Hill had a big innovation and education center in the middle of Boston. The headquarters was in New York, but it was a — it's a — good city for tech and education companies.

10:18
Khurram Jamil
And also healthcare companies, of course, because of the huge concentration of knowledge workers, which is, of course, at the heart of what Area9 does, to scale knowledge, right? So it was a good city for us to be in. Time zone-wise, also very good for Denmark, because we still have a lot of people outside the US in the company. So it worked out very well to be there.

10:40
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And why is the company called Area9 Lyceum?

10:44
Khurram Jamil
So, as I mentioned, two of us of the four founders are medical doctors. And we actually both used to teach anatomy and neuroanatomy. So when we founded Area9 in 2006, we were thinking, where in the brain, on the head, do you actually do higher thinking? Where do you do more complex thinking?

11:04
Khurram Jamil
And the brain is mapped by a person called Professor Brodmamn many, many years ago. And Area 9 is actually in the frontal lobe where higher associative thinking happens. So it's, you can also put it simply, where new ideas emerge. So that's the name of Area9.

11:21
Khurram Jamil
Lyceum — which is our latest company, Area9 Lyceum — Lyceum is, the inspiration comes from Aristotle's first school in Macedonia. So it's very much about, you can say Renaissance learning company, where it's the whole person we've focused on. Of course, we are driving learning through technology, but that frees up students and teachers and instructors to use human time also together. So we focus a lot on, you can say, holistic learning concepts.

11:53
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Talk a little bit about your journey, how you arrived to where you were. I mean, you studied medicine and I assume that you thought that you were going to be a doctor. How did it become what it became?

12:04
Khurram Jamil
It's very much like, if you also maybe later ask me about how you become a collector, it is born out of being curious. I would say most people would say that, entrepreneurs would say that. If you don't have curiosity, then you typically don't end up becoming an entrepreneur.

12:22
Khurram Jamil
And so much curiosity that it becomes a passion, and you can turn that into grit where you just — if you get an idea, if you get a goal, you just pursue that. And when I studied medicine, I always was thinking from year one, that I need to do something more than become a clinical doctor, but I didn't know what that would be.

12:42
Khurram Jamil
So I tried very different things and ran into Ulrich, who had a company at that point and got a job, and that was doing this medical education technology platform. So as a 21-year-old, I basically got into a student job. So this is the best advice as an entrepreneur, is to give students that are curious to become entrepreneurs a student job with a startup or a company that is doing some innovative, fun, and interesting stuff.

13:11
Khurram Jamil
That's what I did. And then one thing led to the other. Then the ball just rolls, right? And the curiosity turned into building the business and then leaving the medical domain.

13:24
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And you also got curious about the world of art. You met some members of the art group, SUPERFLEX —

13:31
Khurram Jamil
Yes.

13:32
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
— while you were a student. How did that meeting, or how did that influence your life and your involvement in the world of art at an early stage in your life?

13:41
Khurram Jamil
Yeah. So that was probably 10 years before I actually bought my first artwork, that I met SUPERFLEX. So this Danish collective of three artists that are also friends, Jakob, Rasmus, and Bjørnstjerne.

13:55
Khurram Jamil
Again, linking it to the curiosity part, it was something that I didn't have from home. My mother and dad always say, where did this come from? And I think partly it's my nature being a bit restless and just wanting to look at what can this offer me as a human, as a person, right?

14:13
Khurram Jamil
So even though for many, and also for me, studying medicine and getting into medical school was my dream. But why didn't you end up becoming a doctor, at least as a clinical practitioner? In my identity, I still feel that I have my medical profession in me.

14:27
Khurram Jamil
But what was it that led you on to something else, right? And when I met these SUPERFLEX guys, they are doing something that is totally and radically different from what I am brought up with and what I've studied. But I was interested in what they were doing. And the way they've been working for the last 31–32 years is that they look at art as a part of the society's infrastructure.

14:52
Khurram Jamil
And what is that? Typically when you talk about infrastructure, you think of airports, you think of roads. But the way that they work with art is to say it needs to be part of not just the DNA of a society. It is, I mean, art has been from humanity's start. We could walk, we've been doing art, right?

15:12
Khurram Jamil
But how do you actually use art to change the trajectory of what a society is and does? And that was super interesting for me, how they're working with complex issues.

15:25
Khurram Jamil
And at that time, one of the works, in 2002, under that current government, when the immigration laws became more restrictive in Denmark, they made a work called FOREIGNERS, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE US ALONE WITH THE DANES. Right? And that work resonated extremely much with a lot of Danes, but also a lot of, let's call it new Danes. Right?

15:49
Khurram Jamil
That was a very modern term at that time. And also for me. So, not only that work, but a lot of their practice dealt with how to actually use art to open people's eyes, for both the other, but also what you can do with art. And that then led to, obviously, a lot of meetings with other artists, and then my curiosity led to eventually, ten years later, starting to collect.

16:17
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And why was it important for you to make it be part of SMK, of the National Gallery of Denmark's collection? And how did you make that happen?

16:27
Khurram Jamil
Yeah. It was not my fault.

16:29
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Your fault…

16:30
Khurram Jamil
It was SMK…exactly. Again, back to the US. So, we moved there in '14 and then in '15, I believe, I was contacted, I believe, by the galleries of SUPERFLEX and they said, Khurram, you have a small painting of FOREIGNERS, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE US ALONE WITH THE DANES. But there is this big work, a mural, I think it's four times five meters, that I think that you should work on helping SMK acquire.

16:55
Khurram Jamil
And there was a wish to find a donor that would be willing to donate that to the SMK's permanent collection. And then, obviously, my interest in art as an infrastructure and a change maker, that, you know, I felt, okay, that could be a good work to help SMK acquire. So I donated that anonymously.

17:19
Khurram Jamil
I was not interested in the public knowing who it is, because that's not the point here. The point was that this work needs to be in the collection, be seen and shared. We printed 10,000 posters, so 10,000 people could benefit from having that poster at home. So that meant a lot for me.

17:38
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
So what is your current relationship to SMK?

17:42
Khurram Jamil
I'm a board member of AFSMK, American Friends of SMK. I've moved back home, I enjoy going there, seeing exhibitions, seeing how when we have guests from abroad, I try to bring them there. My work — I try to involve, when we have events, my coworkers as well. So using art as a tool as well, in that sense, is something that I would strongly suggest and support other business leaders to do. So that's what I mainly do right now.

18:12
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And art is obviously significant for you. Which functions do you think art can have in society? You mentioned to me about a swing between North and South Korea. Talk a little about that.

18:26
Khurram Jamil
Now the whole podcast should not be about SUPERFLEX, but back to SUPERFLEX. They made a fantastic art installation at Tate Modern, in the Turbine Hall called One Two Three Swing! And I ended up having that swing as part of my collection. And it's outside in the sculpture garden that connects into the art space Milaap, that we started the interview with.

18:50
Khurram Jamil
So it's outside. You can nearly see it from this office space. And the swing seats three people. And the idea is basically that three people swinging together is better than one and two. Gives more energy. And the idea with the swing is that the structure is such that typically, the poles that hold the swings should penetrate a border or something that goes into something else.

19:17
Khurram Jamil
So the specific installation I have is that one pole goes into the art space, into the little space that I have, and the other one actually goes out on the street and invites the public that walks on that street to come in. And so it opens up, I would say, the garden for the public to then join and get some good kick energy out, right?

19:41
Khurram Jamil
So the other pole that goes into the street floor, so to say, road, hopefully we'll send good energy out in the other part of the world. And we have that swing in Korea that I also helped donate to with four others in the DMZ zone, which is the Demilitarized Zone in South Korea, just up to the border of North Korea. And that was installed this year at a big ceremony.

20:06
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
That's very interesting. What kind of function does art have? Or what kind of function can art have? You like very thought-provoking pieces. And you have a chair in this room that you might want to describe for the listeners, which is also thought-provoking, and a little provoking, maybe? I don't know.

20:24
Khurram Jamil
Yeah, so this is probably the second or third work, also around ten years ago, that I bought. It's a Danish Arne Jacobsen 7 Chair. A very known piece.

20:35
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
A classic.

20:36
Khurram Jamil
A classic. So the artist, Smike Käszner, a Danish artist, that made this, was asked to do a piece of work, artwork, that had its base in Danish design, but spoke to contemporary issues. And the white chair has the words "Moslems Only."

20:54
Khurram Jamil
But Moslems, not with a "u," that you would spell it today, but with an "o," the way Muslims were spelled in the US when, let's say, Muhammad Ali became a Muslim. When he converted, the boxer, it was said, Muhammad Ali is Moslem.

21:11
Khurram Jamil
And at that time in the US, there was obviously the Civil Rights movement. And there were blacks only. You had buses where people were segregated. And his idea is that the situation in Europe today, with Muslims, is the reference to certain analogies with how the black community had it with the white community in the US. And both as a Muslim and living here, I could relate myself to that. So hence that work.

21:40
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And I have to say to the listeners that I was told that I could definitely sit on the chair. So it's not meant literally. We are in your home, we are surrounded by your own pieces of art. What does an art piece have to have to make it into your private space?

22:00
Khurram Jamil
If it's the private home, then it definitely needs to fit also my wife Pernille's taste. But if it's part of the collection that could be in the office space or in Milaap, which is not private-private, then besides being aesthetic and for a home setting, you mentioned it, it has to provoke a thought in your mind and get you to move potentially from where you are right now to somewhere else.

22:32
Khurram Jamil
So that movement is essential, right? Now, that movement can be conscious around how you or others fit in a society, but it can of course also be a movement of emotions. So it's not that I only like things that talk to contemporary issues, but definitely a good portion of the works do that.

22:56
Khurram Jamil
And then I would say lately in particular, I have started to also find pieces that maybe more talk to the heart and emotions and not so much necessarily to the brain, right? Beautiful works. Just recently I acquired a work from a Palestinian artist. She's not living anymore, but it's a piece from I believe, around the '80s. And there was someone who said, but Khurram, that doesn't really fit your collection. And I was like, no, that's not how it works, right?

23:26
Khurram Jamil
It fits with what I feel is right. So it's a painting. So I'm getting, I would say, at least I'm also seeking, works that does other things with you, so to say. So having said that, when I started, I would say, the collection, the idea was to focus a lot on the Global South, like artists from the Global South. So I still, I would say, that's a key piece. Thought-provoking, and then Global South art. That is probably the main area that the collection is concentrating on.

24:06
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And you seem to have reinvented yourself quite a lot. What are the biggest lessons you have learned in terms of reinventing yourself?

24:15
Khurram Jamil
Constantly on the move and ready to change, right? Because if you collect artwork that you want other people to reflect on and actually maybe change, you have to do that yourself. And that's difficult. The most difficult piece is change, in companies, in relationships, in societies, right?

24:37
Khurram Jamil
So that, I think, is probably the learning that also keeps you going. And growing the collection is that, looking for what change can do for you and the people you care about. So I think that's the biggest learning and the biggest gift, I would say.

24:51
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Let's talk about some of your early accomplishments. You were seven when you were celebrated in a mosque in Hvidovre for having read the complete Quran in Arabic. What made this achievement so special for a 7-year old from your point of view looking back and what did it mean to you to have accomplished this?

25:14
Khurram Jamil
Wow, you really dig deep there. Yeah, so as a seven year old, you don't, of course, you probably do, I mean, you do what your parents get you to focus on. Of course, as a seven year old, it's not your mission to completely read the Quran from A to Z, right? So, I think there was an accomplishment of dedication to what your parents were bringing you up to focus on.

25:41
Khurram Jamil
So I did that and I'm happy that I did that. And that was like getting that recognition from your parents and the community, because you read aloud to a lot of people. It was an article in Det Fri Aktuelt, where my teachers were there, my school inspector came, so I think that is what I remember as a child.

26:03
Khurram Jamil
And also my teachers said at that early age to do something that dedicated showed grit. I also talked about earlier. So I think from an early, early childhood, my parents had to have focused on making me gritty. So that would be probably the takeaway.

26:19
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Can you still do it?

26:22
Khurram Jamil
Yeah, I can still read it.

26:26
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
What dreams did this seven-year old Khurram have of the future?

26:30
Khurram Jamil
I can't recall, probably. At that time I wanted to be, I think a clown, so that I didn't become. But I do recall when I was in fifth grade, I have a Danish, stil, you call it in Danish, where you do a writing. And in that, I actually mentioned that I will become a doctor, and I will make an invention, and I will move to Boston and study at Harvard.

26:55
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
You mentioned Boston?

26:56
Khurram Jamil
Yes, I mentioned Boston. But I never ended up studying at Harvard, right, but I did end up in Boston and did help invent something, you know, that had hopefully a great impact in the US but also the rest of the world with the learning products. And then it also stated that, I think I was 42 at that time, but it says that I will take a break for two years and be with my family.

27:19
Khurram Jamil
So I need to reread it, but it says something like that. So, you know, I did some, I would say, deep thoughts and also scribbled them down. And some of it actually ended up happening and it said, I will get two kids. So that's good.

27:33
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Yes, and you are the father of two kids who are very young. Would they be able to read the Quran In Arabic, or what would their main achievement be?

27:44
Khurram Jamil
That's an interesting question. Yeah. So it links to what it is you as a parent drive your kids to do and become. So my parents did that for me. I've not done that with them and will not do that. But if they want to, when they learn it, I will help them also do that accomplishment.

28:05
Khurram Jamil
But right now, the way that I'm trying to give them is also through the arts, is to give them a platform for opening up their eyes for the other — my culture, my background, my heritage. Because of the collection being from the Global South, a lot of Muslim country artists.

28:24
Khurram Jamil
Not that they need to be Muslims, of course, but they come from that kind of sphere, that obviously, I hope, will give them some positive influence that they won't get when they go in the Danish public school, where they of course need other kinds of input. So that's what I'm giving them and we'll see what that leads to.

28:46
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
How did your religion shape your life philosophy? And now that you're a mature man in your 40s, what are the most important passages that you take away from the holy scriptures?

29:00
Khurram Jamil
Good, deep question there. I would say, what I've recognized that most people that do take what religion they've gotten from, maybe their parents or if they've converted, is that, of course, you respect what you have, but you also keep an open mind to what others cherish.

29:20
Khurram Jamil
And that can be non-religious, but also be religious. So I would say that's probably the biggest gift that I've gotten by being able to study both the holy scriptures, but also always being very curious about what are others believing in and not believing in when it comes to religion.

29:41
Khurram Jamil
And I've also learned through the artist community that religion doesn't fill a lot. But certain artists do. Alexander Tovborg, which you'll see when you leave, I have a work of his, and he actually uses, of course, a lot of his background in Christianity, as a huge inspiration for his paintings.

30:01
Khurram Jamil
So it's a coincidence that I ended up actually in the collection having Alexander's, and who's a Christian, and uses that as inspiration. So it's the Holy Mary and the sun, that is on that picture and that's not a Muslim art piece in the dining room. And having that as a natural thing, I think I'm happy that I do that. But I also have the Moslems Only chair, right, in that same room.

30:28
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And you've mentioned that your parents are originally from Pakistan. How did they end up in Denmark? You mentioned it wasn't the easiest of moves.

30:37
Khurram Jamil
Oh yeah, my dad, he came in, what do you call it? The old Volkswagen, the round ones. That kind of a car, right? All the way from Pakistan and then via Afghanistan, Iran. And he explained when he came to Turkey, he had to be hidden in a train and get to Munich. And so it was a long journey, not as easy for me when I moved to Boston, right?

30:59
Khurram Jamil
And so that was in the late '60s. And for them, I mean, they loved living here and they still live here. But, I mean, it was obviously not knowing the language, and that's the biggest barrier for anyone who's new in Denmark, in particular at that time.

31:15
Khurram Jamil
Like most of their generation, they've done hard work, and been open minded to integrate, which I'm very proud of the way they've done. And obviously given a good upbringing to me and my two sisters as well. I have two big sisters that have learned the lesson of how you keep your own identity and how you have a strong identity, but also how you integrate well with the society you live in. So I think that is thanks to my parents.

31:47
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Do your sisters share your love of art?

31:49
Khurram Jamil
The middle of the sisters, she actually paints. Yeah. So definitely they like art.

31:55
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
And we've learned that you both lived in Denmark, and then in the US, and you have Pakistani roots. What does one gain from being cross cultural or multicultural or however you describe it?

32:10
Khurram Jamil
So, the ability to adapt and the adaptation skills, I would say, most people with my kind of background will highlight as something that you actually get. And I would say that's probably also the main benefits of being multicultural.

32:26
Khurram Jamil
And I can see that in my own kids, because they are also multicultural, right? Because it's a mix of my wife's ethnic Danish upbringing, that they have lived in both the US and Denmark, and are very, very easily adaptable when there are people from the US or people who don't speak Danish, to be able to interact, and getting them to feel welcome. So, yeah, adaptation.

32:54
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
My final question to you, is what are the things you still want to achieve? If I talk to you in 20 years, what do you hope you'll tell me about all the reinventions of yourself that you've gone through in that time?

33:11
Khurram Jamil
20 years, that's a long time. But I would say, continuing having a positive impact on people's ways of learning, learning new things, acquiring knowledge in a society where you can say robotics, automation — we haven't used the word AI today, but that fills a lot.

33:30
Khurram Jamil
I think, what will be great to be part of is to make sure that humanity is wise and knowledgeable, as much as anyhow possible, being part of that change. And I think that will be the most important for me, that I've contributed to that, not only in the US but globally.

33:48
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
Well, thank you so much for your time, Khurram. We really appreciate being in your house in Hellerup.

33:54
Khurram Jamil
Thank you. Thank you for being here.

33:59
Tina Jøhnk Christensen
For today's episode, Khurram Jamil chose SUPERFLEX's FOREIGNERS, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE US ALONE WITH THE DANES! from 2002 from the collection of the National Gallery of Denmark.